Last week, Gateway News reported on the legal proceedings instituted by a gay couple (now legally represented by the SA Human Rights Commission) against Steph and Marina Neethling, Christian owners of a guesthouse in Wolseley, in the Equality Court of Bellville.
At the directions hearing this week (on Monday, April 14, 2014), the Court postponed the matter for hearing on June 17, 2014. On that day, the parties will present legal argument with regard to the difficult question the Court has to decide, namely which fundamental right to protect in the current instance: the gay couple’s right not to be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation, or the Christian owners’ right to freedom of conscience.
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Importance of case
The importance of this case – not only for the guesthouse owners but for all Christians and in particular Christian business owners in South Africa – cannot be over-emphasised. Moss Ntlha, who has now joined Andrew Selley as a leader within FOR SA (Freedom of Religion SA), explains the practical effect as follows: “This case will decide how free (or not) Christians in South Africa really are to obey the Word of God in their everyday lives.”
Given the importance of this case for all Christians and given also the fact that the owners of the guesthouse have felt to conduct the case on their own, FOR SA on Monday asked the Court for permission to intervene in the case as an amicus curiae (“friend of the court”), and was granted permission. As amicus curiae, FOR SA will be able to present legal argument to the Court in an effort to assist and guide the Court with regard to the constitutional issues and balancing of competing rights.
As Legal Counsel speaking on behalf of FOR SA, Advocate Nadene Badenhorst says that “while our Constitution recognises the right not to be unfairly discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation as a fundamental right worthy of protection, the same Constitution entrenches the right to freedom of conscience, religion and belief as a fundamental right to be respected, protected and promoted by the State. Our Constitution does not have a hierarchy of rights and to suggest (as the Human Rights Commission as well as advocates of gay rights continue to do) that sexual orientation rights will or should always trump religious rights, is incorrect and unconstitutional.”
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The current dispute before the Equality Court arose when the owners of the guesthouse informed the gay couple that their guesthouse is not ‘gay friendly’ and politely referred them to a ‘gay friendly’ guesthouse in Wolseley instead.
Demand apology
The gay couple contends that the owners’ conduct violated their right to equality as “sexual orientation, like our skin colour or belief system, is not a basis for discrimination”. As a result of their alleged humiliation and emotional scarring, the gay couple claims an unconditional and sincere apology from the owners; that the owners pay a fine and the money be donated to Pride Shelter Cape Town; and that they be prevented from discriminating against gay people in future.
The owners, on the other hand, contend that just as they respect the couple’s choice (to be gay), they expect the couple to respect their choice (in terms of how they run their business). As owners, their choice is to follow God’s Word and not to knowingly allow or enable guests to commit sin on their property. For this reason, they also do not allow unmarried couples to sleep together in the same room, or allow drunkenness or prostitution on the property.
With regard to the issues that the Equality Court will have to decide in this case, Advocate Badenhorst explains that the owners’ decision to turn the couple away as a result of their sexual orientation, does not automatically make them guilty of “unfair discrimination”. Even if the court were to find that the gay couple was “discriminated” against on the basis of sexual orientation, it still has to be proven that the discrimination was “unfair” taking into account a number of factors, including but not limited to the intention of the guesthouse owners and the purpose of the discrimination.
In the present instance, the intention of the guesthouse owners was not directed at impairing the dignity of the gay couple. While the gay couple may dislike the owners’ decision and feel hurt because of it, it does not necessarily mean that the owners were legally in the wrong. Likewise, even if the Court were to find that the owners discriminated against the gay couple, the Court still has to have regard to their reason for doing so, namely that their moral conscience would not allow them to do otherwise.
Restaurant
In this regard, a distinction has to be drawn between “discrimination” and “participation”. By way of example, while there can be no moral or legal justification for a Christian refusing to serve a gay couple a meal in a restaurant (and to do so, would generally amount to “unfair discrimination”), the same does not necessarily hold true in the case where a Christian refuses to make a room available to a couple practicing homosexuality; or refuses to make a wedding venue available for, or bake a wedding cake or take photographs in celebration of, a homosexual “marriage”.
In the case of serving a gay couple in a restaurant, the Christian is not asked to participate in any sinful activity, does not violate his conscience and can therefore have no moral or legal objection to preparing the meal. In the case however where the Christian is asked to be involved in the arrangements for a gay wedding (by providing the wedding venue, baking the wedding cake or taking the wedding photos), the Christian may feel that he is participating in or celebrating something that goes against the Word of God and which would therefore violate his conscience if he were to do so. To explain: It is a central tenet of the Christian faith that marriage is a covenant, a sacred bond between a man and a woman instituted by and entered into before God (Gen 2:24). The Bible also uses this picture of marriage between a man and a woman, to explain the sacred relationship between Christ and His church (Eph 5:21 – 33). For this reason gay marriage, while legal in South Africa, is understood by Christians as contrary to God’s Word and offensive to Christ’s picture of His relationship with us. The Bible also specifically forbids the practice of homosexuality (1 Corinthians 6:9). To expect or force a Christian therefore to help a gay couple to get married (by providing the wedding venue, baking the wedding cake or taking the wedding photos), is really expecting or forcing the Christian to help the gay couple to do something that grieves God and thereby, to himself grieve God.
Likewise, to expect or force a Christian to make a room available to a gay couple who is likely to have same-sex intercourse in the room, is to expect or force the Christian to help the couple practice homosexuality and sin against God. Again, this may make the Christian himself a participant in the sin and in this way, violate his conscience. For this reason, the Christian’s conscience should be legally protected in such instance, for to do otherwise may be to expect or force the Christian to place his own salvation at risk.
Speaking on behalf of FOR SA, Founder and CEO Andrew Selley asks Christians to intentionally pray for this watershed case and in particular, for the owners of the guesthouse who are directly involved. Referencing Romans 14, he appeals to Christians not to condemn the guesthouse owners for having followed their convictions and having done what they believed to be right before God, even if they themselves would have dealt with the situation differently and would not have turned the gay couple away. “While as Christians we may hold to different convictions of the faith, we can agree on this: It is not for the State to prescribe what our conviction should be.”
Against this background, FOR SA calls upon Christians to unite in prayer and in action to defend our religious freedom and our liberty to hold to Christian convictions and act according to our conscience.
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I hope the owners and their lawyer, Nadene are held accountable for their crimes against humanity. You are worse than apartheid because you should know better by now. Disgusting. This is not what your God is about. Isn’t he Love? Is this Love? Have you thought for a moment that he would be completely DISGUSTED by your actions? All the couple are wanting si an apology and a donation to charity.. but you go on and fight the the “Good fight” . You are everything that is wrong in our society. Be ashamed. be very ashamed.
Here Here! They make me embarrassed to call myself a christian. Please know not all christians are this evil. Some of us love God and his teachings and follow his word of Love, not hate and intolerance and discrimination. If it means anything I apologise on their behalf, They know not what they do.
Kirst, firstly I apologise, I tried to resist answering your message but failed. Here is my message. Please see it as encouragement and not condemnation…A believer in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour should Never need to be embarrassed. A believer should also never compromise God’s Word. You cannot choose what you want to believe and discard that which does not agree with you. That demeans God and belittles Him and His Majesty. True Love as Jesus has for all of us should also never be underestimated or misunderstood. Please do not apologise on my behalf for believing his Word and following His teaching. Please also do not accuse me and others like me of hate, intolerance or discrimination when there is no evidence of such. We do not hate gay people, we just do not agree with what they do. Your message is in fact evidence of nastiness and arrogance. Blessing to you to.
Please don’t ‘cherry pick’ from the Bible. If you are a practicing Christian, then the Word of God is infallible. You’re either with Jesus or against him.
Practicing Christians are very tolerant of unbelievers. We don’t go around bullying unbelievers into submission to Biblical teaching. That would be ‘disgusting’. To make it practical, I, as a practicing Christian, would never walk into a Muslim restaurant and demand that I be served pork, lest I should report them to the SAHRC for unfair discrimination!! Why? Because I respect the rights of the Muslim to practice Muslim beliefs. And it works the same way for homosexuals. Mutual respect. You are free to follow your own convictions and practicing Christains are free to follow theirs too.
That is tolerance. What I cannot understand is how many ‘Christians’ there are out there who don’t even know what the Bible (Word of God) says! So many ‘Christians’ have simply ‘cherry picked’ relevant Scriptures to suit their own watered down version of what the Word of God says and they adapt the Word of God to suit their own lifestyles and world views. We can argue until were blue in the face, but if we are Christians, then we mutually understand that we CANNOT ever argue with the Word of God. To add or remove from the Scriptures would be to bring upon ourselves the curses spoken of in the Scriptures, no?
The truth is very clear to see. The intolerant people are the very people who are viciously attacking practicing Christians and slandering them as intolerant.
If you are a practicing Christian, then I hope and pray that you start reading the Bible because when you do, God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, will show you just how far from His truth you have strayed.
My friend unfortuantely like so many people you do not understand what LOVE means. Love does NOT mean I accept everything that you do. Love INCLUDES DISCIPLINE.
Let me illustrate it this way- if I as a dad see my child is going to run across a busy highway, am I going to let him do what he wants (because I love him), or am I going to grab his arm and pull him back, even if it hurts?
Please understand what LOVE means.
I do believe that you yourself are either naive or really dishonest. It would be hard to believe that you are in fact objective. You clearly have not read the article or alternatively you are so one sided that it would not matter what you read because you dont care about anything else except your opinion. Christians have a right to maintain their conscience. It is as simple as that. As a Muslim will not eat food that is not halaal or serve liquor so Christians will not accept the acts (emphasis on acts) of homosexuality. There isn o judgement of the people themselves and their rights. There is absolutely no evidence of not showing love. You fail to justify why a Christians conscience is of no value. What I find disgusting is your obsession with painting Christians as hateful and intolerant when there is no evidence of this. We have rights. I would not go to a gay B and B as it would make me uncomfortable in the first place. Neither would I go to a traditional Muslim B and B as it would also make me uncomfortable. I would also not ever critise an openly gay, Muslim or any different establishment as everyone (Christians included) must be respected for their beliefs. You lash out automatically instead of offering a calm, objective and balanced opinion. This in itself shows your true nature which I find rather nasty in fact. I also say to the person who claims to be Christian and supports you…great. That is how you feel. You are entitled to your belief. Read the article though before you so eagerly jump to offer an opinion. The gay couple have a right to be gay. That is their choice and no one stands in condemnation of this. What is wrong in our society are those that are quick to demand their rights but will not accept that others too are also entitled to their rights. Christians are not at war with gay people, we merely do not agree with the acts of homosexuality and will not and cannot celebrate such acts. We will however support that gay people have rights but never give up our rights in favour of yours. We have no shame, we know love and need not apologise. Blessings to you boet and i truly mean that. I must also ask is , Why are you reading what is a newsletter for true believers in Jesus Christ when your views and manner of response clearly show that you are at odds with our beliefs. Are you searching for answers or just trolling.
God’s law remains supreme.
Applying the Scriptures to Every Sphere of Life and Thought,
Promoting the Biblical and Christian Worldview
http://65.175.91.69/Reformation_net/default.htm
Coalition on Revival – Reform 500 FIRE – Manual :
Homosexuality : page 48 – 50:
http://issuu.com/frontlinefellowship/docs/cor_manual_covers
I know for a fact that Muslims would not allow gays in there house,The question is why are you not saying this to them, I think you would think twice before you attacked them like this…Because believers are easy targets and I don’t think you have what it takes don’t just attack one group attack all openly.
Your Neighbour and Kirst – You are luke warm frogs slowly being boiled by your “tolerance” of sin! And yes, God is love – but definitely not FOR gay-love!
Dont understand why anyone would want to force anyone to conform to their lifetyle.Try doing the same to a muslim institution and see what happens.If someone does’nt want me to use their facilities because of my sexual orientation then so be it.Just move on .
Here’s the problem. Just because you’re a Christian does not mean you can speak for all Christians. If all Christians condemned marriage equality then you might have a leg to stand on but …. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessing_of_same-sex_unions_in_Christian_churches
Fascinating discussions taking place here. One disgusted side calling for ‘criminals against humanity ‘to be held accountable for everything that is wrong in society’; calling them evil men full of hate and intolerance. The other side calling for the same rights their accusers enjoy. Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition starting all over again … that is if you believe it has ever stopped.
PS: plz don’t write back and say Ferdinand was a Christian.
This article is completely biased and makes me embarrassed to call myself a Christian. This is what an unbelieving world finds so unbelievable. I for one am thankful that Jesus doesn’t turn me away every time I sin, which is probably every day.
http://www.gotquestions.org/tolerance-vs-convictions.html
All Christians cherry pick from the Bible or do you think stoning should still be practiced?
Clayton, you don’t fully grasp the Scriptures. The Law merely shows how impossible it is to be righteous before a Holy God when mankind, since the fall, is bent towards sin. So the Law points to our only salvation which is in Christ alone. Acts to Revelation teaches us how to live out our Christianity in a way that glorifies our Lord.
To answer your question – no, stoning should not be in practice.
Clayton, firstly “all CHristians” is like saying “All Muslims” or “all gay people”. My good friends who go to Mosque would not appreciate you calling them murderous jihadis. Secondly, and I thought this was explained to you last week, there are those who call themselves Christians and those who are Christians. The difference is simple and I really dont feel like explaining this to you again because the truth is, you dont want to know, you do not want to change your opinion and you are so obsessed with paneling your own interpretation that we are becoming exhaustred with you. Let me say this for the last time, we do not hate gay people. We just do not agree with their beliefs and life style as you do not agree witth our beliefs and life style. So stop picking on us. You are coming across as an obsessive bully boy and it seems that you are inviiting your friends on our “news forum” to harass us and that makes you an intolerant bigot. So please go and live your life as you choose and so will we. If you want to join us you are welcome to do so but then follow our rules and that is show respect for who we are. In return we will respect you.
Human dignity calls for two way respect. A Christian does not enter a gay establishment and demand that it serves to the christian’s beliefs. Hence a gay should not walk into a christian establishment and demand it serves to the gays beliefs. One can love another without accepting their convictions. I don’t smoke, so i don’t allow smoking in my home, yet I don’t tell a smoker that they can’t smoke else ware. Am I now discriminating against the smokers rights? If I don’t like your mannerism and choose not to associate with you on that principal, am I discriminating? Any person who says yes to either of these would be discriminating against my freedom of choice.
Third last paragraph “… to make a room available to a gay couple who is likely to have same-sex intercourse in the room…” – The word ‘likely’ infers that judgement has been cast on the gay couple before they’ve even had same-sex intercourse, quite a serious thing to do. “…may be to expect of force the Christian to place his own salvation at risk” – so what we’re saying here is that if I let a gay couple sleep in the same room under my roof then my salvation is at risk? What utter rubbish!
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-homophobic.html#ixzz2bkzsANZl
Jacques, we must be careful to not oversimplify the human heart & how each heart outworks faith.To answer on your last statement- Romans 14:23-says”But whoever has doubts is CONDEMNED if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is SIN.”What this scripture tells us is that all the christian couple needs is doubt-could letting a room to a “married “couple who practise homosexuality be possibly wrong in their understanding, then, if they proceed the let the room out they sin against their own conscience, damage their faith & are “condemned” .You may have a stronger faith than theirs, which means that you would not sin if you had let the room, but you are not them-thus you must not judge their “weaker faith”.I will not here show how your faith(belief) on how to deal with the situation may be correct, nor how the couple in this articles way of dealing with it may be correct. Suffice to say-that for them, it was clearly incorrect based upon their sincere faith & we as brothers should not condemn, but rather stand united in brotherly love.Remember too that these cases are being used by gay activists to actively persecute christian worldwide, & cases are being chosen against “us” which are complex-to divide us & make winnable cases for Gay activists. FORSA is getting almost daily calls from christians who are experiencing marketplace persecution for their beliefs & Already churches in SA have lost cases against these activist(Creare Case & Morelletta Park case) & it is only a matter of time before the onslaught against christians effectively shuts down uncompromising churches & businesses, if we do not stop fighting against each other & begin to defend Christian belief & religious freedom.
Thanks Andrew, However when reading 1 Cor 6:9-10 “Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God”
I doesn’t look like ‘weak faith’ as much as a prejudice that they have toward a certain sin or ignorance of this sin in conjunction with others. I would ask the Christian couple to then screen everyone who visits the guest house for sins that they are ‘likely’ to commit whilst there i.e Greed, theft, drunkardness etc. this would be more consistent and would look less prejudiced toward gay people.
One Corinthians 6 is not a complete record of sins that can cause condemnation to come to believers. Some sins are obvious and clearly mentioned, while others are harder to define, because of the complexity of the human heart and faith. Romans 14 mentions that some things are permissible for some of us, while others will be “condemned” if we practice the same things. Thus to be condemned because of your ” weak faith” means that sin is defined in a broader sense in situations like this, and the Neethlings are convinced that to allow sinful practices on their property would amount to sin before God for them. To illustrate how this works-imagine you are a property owner, and are looking to rent out your property. An abortion clinic approaches you, and wants to rent your factory, and use the premises to kill children. As a Christian you are in a difficult situation. If you rent out your property to the abortion clinic you are in effect potentially helping someone else to kill children. Now some Christians may think nothing of this, but for others this creates a moral quandary… Is the owner partly responsible for helping murder to take place. I personally would struggle to rent out my factory in such a case, as I would believe that I would be an accomplice to murder. This is the same scenario that the Neethlings face, and to give them credit-they do not rent out rooms to drunkards, those engaging with prostitutes, unmarried couples or homosexual couples. The Neethlings have consistently rented out rooms to homosexual singles, but feels that they cannot knowingly help someone to sin before God, but providing the means… In this case a room. You may disagree with them, but this is their faith and it should be respected. The Neethlings are aware that sinners rent their rooms, and that sin will happen-pornography etc. undoubtedly happen within the establishment. The difference is that in one case the Neethlings feel that they are helping someone to some by knowingly endorsing what they will probably do, versus doing their utmost to not cause someone to sin. In this we are dealing with the complexity of an individual couples belief system, and must be very careful to pass judgment upon them-even if we disagree because we have “stronger faith”. Incidentally your thoughts on “judging” that the gay couple will engage in homosexual activity is irrelevant. It is like saying that a man coming to the room with a prostitute should not be prejudged, because we do not know if he will actually engage in sexual activity. In reality as believers, we have a duty to help persons who participate in homosexual activity to know that they are loved by God, but are sinning against God, and separated from him by their actions. The Neethlings were faced with two men, who are legally married, and who want to share a room and enjoy the same privileges as a man and a woman who are legally married.The Neethlings respectively chose to inform the couple that what they were doing was wrong, and from the Christian God is not accepted. All sinners can come to Christ and find his mercy and love, but must turn away from dead works that lead to death. The Neethlings chose this way to help the gay couple. You may disagree, and I may disagree, but in the end our thoughts are irrelevant and we should keep them to ourselves rather than slander a brother. Romans 14:4 “who are you to post judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own masster that he stands or falls.” we would be wise to lovingly support the Neethlings,, and to respect their faith..
Whether I allow someone to open an abortion facility on my property or not they’re still going to open an abortion facility. You’re being very diplomatic here (and I thank you for that) but I can see that what you’re trying to say to me is that I must be very careful to judge the Christian couple’s faith. I would like to say the same to the Chrisitan couple; be very careful to judge the gay couple based on stereotyping and generalising. You cannot judge someone on something they haven’t done yet or assume they will do, I’m sorry, you cannot. I stand by that. I don’t pray for the Neethlings to have it their way, I pray for God to have it His way, whatever that way may be.
Well said Andrew and Jacques stop nit picking unless I am wrong and you have no sin and have never transgressed, Believers are the only ones who shoot their own and leave them to die.Read the WHOLE context of judging,They are not judging they made a moral choice.God said you must be hot or cold but I spit out the luke warm the draadsitters always come up with “don’t judge”
Perhaps you should red this..http://www.bpnews.net/42467/progay-book-cites-piper-keller
Stuart name one Christian that follows all 613 biblical laws. ALL Christian pick what parts to follow or to reject. Once Christians supported slavery because the Bible condoned it, now most Christians say slavery is morally wrong. The Bible still has those pro-slavery verses you just ignore them. Questioning your beliefs isn’t bullying. Like I’ve said many times if you call yourself a Christian, then you ARE a Christian. If the Pope/Rick Warren/Joyce Meyer/Angus Buchan said you’re not a true Christian would you believe them? By what authority do you claim the ability to discern “true” Christianity? Stuart I will my mind if presented with rational arguments & verifable evidence because I want to know the truth, no matter what if the truth isn’t what I’d like to believe. You want to believe, I want to know.
Clayton, I commend you for wanting to know. Key to knowing is really understanding the difference between the laws of the Old Covenant (Old Testament) which people needed to follow to pursue a right relationship with a Holy God, and the grace of the New Covenant (New Testament) through God (Jesus Christ) making a way for us to become beloved members of His family. In John 5:39 Jesus said: “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!” He was talking of the law and the prophets in the Old Covenant that were pointing to God’s solution (The New Covenant embodied in Jesus Christ) for man’s problem (separation from God through sin).
Clayton, I am sensing sincerity and if this is so, then I apologise. I could write a book on my personal experiences that serve as evidence of the existence of God and Jesus being His Son but this would not necessarily help you or make sense to you. If I can tell you something that might resonate with you though, it would be this; we are all sinners and God loves us all equally. We do not sin and therefore we are sinners but rather, we sin because we are sinners. So what differentiates a true believer from some one who is religious? Very simply, his behaviour, his heart, his fruit that he produces. As Christians we admit and acknowledge that we are sinners and therefore we need Christ. We have realised and accepted that “self” is sinful and must die. Humility, love, repentance, forgiveness etc are all charecteristics displayed by believers. No believer can claim to have all the answers. For many of the questions you ask or may have, only God can help you. This is where another very important aspect of being a true believer comes in. We have personal relationships with our Saviour Jesus Christ. Clayton, very simply, I cannot start a day without spending time with Him, worshipping Him, giving Him thanks, pleading with Him, asking Him. So, if you truly want answers and you are searching for Him, dont ask or debate with us on this news forum. Go to Jesus directly. Go to a Church that is filled with loving people and find someone you can trust to assist and guide you. Read the Bible not with worldly eyes but with the eyes and heart of a searching child. Jesus saved me from a life of cynicism, hard living and violence and this why I know that He is real and He lives and there are many like me who once embraced,excused and justified our sin. The most important thing I keep on saying is this. God loves us but does not love or accept our sin. It is therefore that Jesus died for our sin and we have been offered salvation only because of His grace. It is this grace that is so amazing. I have done nothing to deserve it. Life is unfair and I say this because if life was fair, then I and many others would go straight to hell. So, if you truly want the truth, dont debate about Him, approach Him with reverance and fear and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. As God loves us but not our sin, so too do we love others but not their sin. We are able to love gay people but cannot accept or bless what they do. It is very simple. It is unfair for Christians like this couple to be prosecuted or persecuted because they act upon their conscience. No one has the right to judge them as we Christians do not have the right to judge others. I hope this has been clarified. Andre’s answer to you is accurate and there is so much more but as I said…this is not the best place for you to find most of your answers…if you are in fact searching. Blessings
Clayton, Somehow you still continue to harp on the 613 laws even though I told you clearly last time your knowledge is lacking. It seems you persist with the old tune even though the band has left? Strange, bud, strange – and counter-productive if you refuse to listen to the wise comments of those on this forum who have more patience that I to respond to you.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-scoffers.html#ixzz2rO7aP8l1
This is a very good article – from whatever point it is read. One thing I know for sure is, that one Christian will condemn somebody for things they do not agree with, while another Christian will act in love, rather trying to show the real love God have for his people. That is why the owners of this guest house rather gave the gay couple another option. I am in the hospitality industry myself and not personally involved with all check-ins – I have staff working in my office, doing it for me. If I don’t agree with my clients lifestyle, I cant go to them after they checked in, telling them to vacate the apartment, because of my beliefs. I rather handle them with respect. I know two gay couples – they know I don’t agree with their lifestyle, but they also know that I show them real love and also pray for them.
I had a case where a person checked in, who actually wanted to practice prostitution at my place. When they checked in, the lady told me that there is something in me that she cannot identify – I told her that maybe its the love of God, showing in me. Half an hour later she checked out, telling the receptionist that she felt something in that room that made her uncomfortable to stay there!! When they told me what happened, I knew it was the Holy Spirit, working through me, making her aware of the sin she is doing.
http://www.gotquestions.org/love-sinner-hate-sin.html
Isaiah 5.20 ” Woe to those who call evil good and good evil…”
What happened to the sign one has at an establishment “right of admission reserved” in terms of our laws. Surely if one has a sign like this up you can refuse anyone entry without having to explain your reason to refuse them entry. If they presume you are racist or anti-gay or discriminatory that is their problem. Anyone know if this reservation of admission to a property, establishment or facility is still legal? This may make all the above debate, which is very interesting, irrelevant if the owner of an establishment can pick and choose without reason who to let in or not!
Learn something… http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/news-flash-folks-private-discrimination-is-illegal/
“the law places drastic restrictions on the way in which a property owner can make use of his or her property in order to advance the common good or to protect the community”
–
“Common good or to protect the community”. That includes the LBGTI community to be protected from bigotry and hate.
After all the Neethling’s are not very consistent in their application of discrimination against “sinners” and they rather focus on who has sex with whom.
Thank you David. Although from your reference, it is clear that if you advertise your premises to the public to stay, eat or shop you may not refuse them entry for reasons of discrimination. However it does not say you cannot refuse them entry just because you do not want them to come in, in other words, for no given reason. I am just arguing the case for refusing entry for no reason. How would this be against the law? Is one obliged to give a reason for no entry to someone? However the person refused entry, if offended, could always try and prove discrimination and lay a charge and sue, if that’s their thing.
Aah, but the Neethling’s did give a reason.
Also, they run a business therefore it is not a private home.
The law is clear – you cannot discriminate against someone based on their sexual orientation, in the same way you cannot discriminate against someone who is non-white or a Muslim or a woman.
Mr Selley’s insistence that homosexuality is a choice, is irrelevant.
I don’t think turning someone away because of the colour of their skin will hold water in 2014, not matter how good your disclaimer. I feel the same about the right to sexual orientation, don’t think your disclaimer is going to hold water there. It’s like saying “Sorry we don’t want ugly people here, only good looking people”, no disclaimer is going to stand.
Sorry you are missing my point, which is does one have the right to refuse entry to one’s establishment fullstop. There could be a number of reasons some of which could be discrimination due to race or religion but they could also be because you just don’t like their appearance or you have a personal reason and don’t want guests. What does the law say?
I you read the link you will see your “rights” are limited.
I am so proud of the Neethlings for standing for their faith. I also would not admit a gay couple in my establishment regardless who blows hot air about that decision. I am a black person and my skin pigmentation is a biological factor but homosexuality is not biological but behavioural. It is not nature but nurture. I would not endorse it like I would not endorse any other aberration.
Accusations of homophobia, discrimination, prejudice, are only side shows created by those who want to force their lifestyle on others. It won’t work. I don’t support abortion because I consider it a sin against God and not because of who does it or the circumstances around that decision. I believe in absolute and not relative and subjective truth. The day I gave God control over my life is a day I lost the right to self-determination. He is the standard of morality and not human beings. The love of God does not cancel His righteous requirements and therefore we should not abuse it.
Those of you who are governed by a humanistic worldview are entitled to that but you have not right to judge those who are governed by a Biblical worldview or to twist the Scriptures to suit your own agenda. For some of us the constitution of SA is not the ultimate guiding document but the Bible is.
Blessings
The Neethlings are an embarrassment to their own faith, as is Nadene Badenhorst. The “gay couple” in question are in fact a Christian couple who were legally married in a Christian Ceremony. Is their marriage, love and commitment to each other also not deserving of basic human dignity and recongition? Shame on you!