The liberal mainstream media have wasted no time distorting the facts about the SA Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) investigation of Joshua Generation Church in Cape Town.
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The Sunday Times – whose inaccurate and biased reporting led to the SAHRC investigation of Creare Training Centre in Bloemfontein – are attempting to portray JoshGen as a shady cult.
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The Sunday Times article, “Manual advises on pain as a tool of parenting” portrays the Church as an institution teaching and encouraging “violence against defenceless children.”
However, although the liberal media is attempting to make this an issue about corporal punishment – the real issue is the growing attacks on Christian religious freedoms.
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A separate Sunday Times article incorrectly reports that “senior Church leaders met in Pretoria to discuss resistance to government plans to outlaw spanking.”
The facts are, the Christian leaders met in Pretoria recently to discuss the growing attacks against religious freedoms! The SAHRC investigation of Joshua Generation Church is just one of many examples of state intrusion in the legitimate authority of the Christian Church.
The Christian leaders did not discuss the various viewpoints on corporal punishment. But whether the state can dictate to the Christian Church what it can or cannot teach from the Bible!
Alarmingly, a few Christian leaders are already reacting to the divisive tactics of the liberal media.
They want Pastor’s to publically attack each other on the merits of corporal punishment while avoiding the more important issue of whether the state can become the final authority on Scripture.
Churches can disagree on the principle of “spare the rod, spoil the child.” But what the Christian Church cannot dispute is its freedom to preach the Bible according to its own convictions.
The Christian Church must stand united against government attempts to undermine religious freedoms in SA, including attempts to manipulate and censor the Word of God.
If Joshua Generation Church cannot teach “spare the rod, spoil the child” then the precedent set by the ruling means no Church can teach it either! And if the SAHRC can dictate what the Church teaches on corporal punishment – it means they can dictate many other Scriptural principles.
Attacks on religious freedoms are not unique to SA. But as Os Guinness writes, it is the battle of our time. If the Church surrenders its authority to the state – it ceases to be the Church of Christ!
On a different note, “Watchmen on the Wall” will be travelling to Durban the weekend of 4 – 6 October 2013 to record the “National Alliance for Life Conference” on Saturday 5 October 2013.
We will also record the “National March for Life” on Sunday 6 October starting at the Sharks Board parking lot in Umhlanga. Please join us for this weekend to make a bold statement for life!
Please continue to pray for the unity of the Christian Church in South Africa. But while doing that, will you also consider seeking real opportunities to exercise Christian unity.
Church unity has become a cliché over the past decade. But you can make it real. Please make a special effort to unite with your brother’s and sister’s in Christ to the glory of God!
Quite frankly, this has become a circus, and Andrew Selley is sounding more and more like President Obama trying to rally and unite a very divided USA congress to back his ‘red line’. Yes, the similarities are frightening – “we are under attack”.
I’d be excited about church unity at last, but quite honestly, I was hoping it would be over much more than the ‘doctrine of spanking’. If I’m going to be martyred, I’d rather it was because I was doing the works of Jesus like healing the sick, forgiving sinners, destroying the lie that God is angry with us, and restoring the lost to the Father’s love.
While disciplining one’s children in a Biblical way is not at all wrong, making a doctrine of it is religious legalistic nonsense.
And if you have any doubt about what I’m saying, consider the fact that ‘we’ have now called upon the Muslims to support ‘our spanking doctrine’. Where’s the Godly wisdom in that ?
Someone suggested that a Prophetic Voice was needed, but I would like to suggest that what is lacking here is real apostolic leadership. This is not the beginning or the final beach head against Christian freedom that some are proclaiming.
Instead, this is an opportunity for Andrew Selley to do the BIBLICAL correct thing, and like Paul, to stand before and give a good account to the governing authorities. As we can see in the New Testament, a testimony can bring about the miracle required in any situation. In this case, Andrew Selley should give his testimony about the fruits of his own fathering experience, and how his own children have prospered through Biblical discipline.
Real courage demands that that we each stand by our own convictions first, before we muster an army behind us. After all, we are not of the ‘world’ who only seem to get ‘brave’ when they can rally the masses with them.
Patrick, the big issue is not spanking but defending the right of the church to teach from the Bible without the State defining what that they may or may not teach. Also in fairness to Selley he made an appointment to see the commission’s attorney and offered to help the State with community training. I would not be surprised if he shared his testimony on loving, parental disciplining at the same time — he has done so on his blog. The fact that his lawyer got to pray with the commission attorney and it was well received sounds like a good testimony.
I don’t think now is the time for churches to be criticising one another over their differences in doctrine and practice. There is an orchestrated attack on the freedom of the church that has the potential to affect all churches. It would be wise for the church to unite in dealing with the threat. I believe Dr Chris Peppler (See https://gatewaynews.co.za/book-by-sa-theologian-calls-on-church-to-refocus-on-the-person-of-the-lord-jesus-christ/) has something helpful to say to the church at this time in calling for our focus to be on the person of Jesus Christ. He says if we adopted such a focus: “Our churches will be united around the person of Jesus rather than being divided over doctrine or practice.”
Andre, thanks for your opinion. I’ll stick to mine, it’s far more Biblical than yours.
Besides, I was responding to Mr Naidoo’s opinions here, and if anything, I would have liked to have seen his reply. Maybe I’m naïve but I was not expecting this news website to act like a referee as well.
PS. Sorry, I’m still trying to get over biased refs like the one who did the Springboks last week.
The problem is for years the church wanted to dictate to an unbelieving world instead of reconciling them with God’s love, church wanted the world in agreement with their heavy theologies and to submit. This will never work because its dictatorship of men. The world does not share church values and to impose this on them is ludicrous. Only the Love of God trough the true Ecclesia can change people’s hearts to God something the “church’ does not understand at all and not arguing about what is right and wrong and stupid doctrines. Church people are such hypocrites! And I say this as an Ecclesiasts!!
I agree; making a doctrine of it is religious legalistic nonsense and sometimes the church can just busy you with rubbish. It really is up to the parent and the parent’s relationship with God will guide them in how to deal with the child and family under Gods government which is not subject to the government of the church or the government of the land but to God directly. None of these actually have any say in your life or that of the child of the true Ecclesiast. Let Jesus be the Guide not the “church” or government and you won’t have to fret. The church is engaged in the flesh while the true Ecclesia is engaged in the Spirit realm where they shake powers of demons not ruffle feathers of men like the show case churches do.
It is the opinion of the true hidden Ecclesia (not church organisations) that it seems that people called church are more followers of church organisations, their pastors and doctrines than they are of Jesus like the true Ecclesia. The church has become a religion of idolatry unto themselves and a religion about Him instead of having relationship with Him. Many think they are in relationship and teaching other to do so but when you have been to their churches and seen what goes on there and all the pomp and ceremony means nothing when the fruit shows up to reveal what it really is, which is seen in how they easily forget you and abandon you, you realise that most of the things they teach detract from the New Testament mandate and from the Love of God, usually is about money. The lies parading as Spirit filled church makes me sick to the pit of your stomach with Holy Anger because it supports a cause they believe is of God just because they use scripture. The wicked men are those who have entered the church and concocted teachings out of pieces of scripture but which none are in the same context.
After 10 years of attending churches in this city of Cape Town I have no friend from their congregations other than maybe 1 Ecclesiast they tried to govern but failed, and those that were in the world with me first and became saved, because everything revolved around their doctrines and deeds and pet beliefs and when you leave they forget you. They are flooded with earthly wealth and do not understand what true riches are and none of it has anything to do with materialism and they get involved in politics which is not Jesus calling. Jesus never went into politics, he gathered the Ecclesia. . Jesus does not need money or churches or politics to save the lost. He needs the mouth of the Ecclesia and that is it, He does not need government to agree with Him, He does it anyway because He is above every Government even the government of the church. Just because it is a church doesn’t make it right. The church is not God but they teach strange things. Today’s churches is most often westernised and governed by watered down versions of truth mixed with manmade doctrines, theologies and mandates they claims are God’s. So in terms of church authority in many or most case it is their own authority they have taken up by studies and jumping through their church hoops of their structural leadership to become approved and not God given. Church makes them a target for attack because the enemy cannot find the true Ecclesia and even if he could, they stand too strong in this desert from his attacks against their faith. We are being hidden in the desert surrounded by God, because God is right beside us and will not let false doctrines or lies about His love or anything steal our faith or relationships with Him. Not even the church can attack the Ecclesia! No church will ever stand between me and God. The only mediator is Jesus that is all that will do. Many things I heard in Church made me think, “are these people trying to offend me with God or draw me to Him because they most certainly make being a Christian a killer of any joy and they have such warped congregated sense of truth?”
The desert place where the true Ecclesia is now is not a place in the world or in politics or in churches! Wake up pew warmers the Ecclesia is not inside your doors unless they are still held captive by false westernised churches and need to wake up. There is no unity for the church we see with our eyes because they are always at odds about things like this and wrestle in the flesh with things. True unity exist where the true Ecclesia gather in the spirit realm alongside God and is not a place, time, day or a building or a group. The Ecclesia is in constant meeting in the spiritual realm with God and people come and go 24/7 and man cannot rule it or manipulate it like they do with their church organisations, Conferences etc. The voice of the Ecclesia is not heard by men but it shakes the spirit realm with prayers and conversations with the Trinity.
My parents are missionaries and they too have left the organised church more than 20 years ago and walk the streets and market place being what God made them to be and everyone sees the light shining out of them. Everyone wants to know where they fellowship because they are so different. It’s quite a laugh, my parents are closer to God than the organised church in their very town, so much so that stranger sit up and take note. One does not need to agree with church to be saved but with the word, and many times the church twists the word to make it say and teach things it only does out of context. Church has been in disagreement with itself for generations because, they have let the devil creep in through masonry and false self appointed theologians who turned it into manmade doctrines rather than follow the truth of Jesus. They have so many false prophets prophesying this and that and I use to get so confused, but since I have stepped away, I hear God’s voice better. God shows me what is what, because for once in my life the church is not drowning out Gods voice in my heart with their messages to rape your wallet. I was once in such a prominent church in this town and God gave me a dream where people were praying in a circle inside the church and then he opened my eyes and I saw them all in wizard outfits and that evil spirits were ministering there.
Believers wake up, the church is so far from God that it has become a man made monster of ungodly self made doctrines. It appears good but it is far from the truth. I have left the church organisations years ago but not my Faith. There is a huge difference between abandoning the faith and abandoning church and sticking to your faith. My faith grew much stronger as did my relationship with God and I no longer suffer any guilt, lack love or have a 10th as much shame and guilt like I use to going to church. What I thought was a true church in this city just made me sick I will never go in their doors again. They do not hold the book of life and they do not decide who goes to Heaven, Jesus does. They teach lies concerning tithing and so much more and apply so much pressure using the old covenant. All twisted truth and I wonder when all these so called Spirit filled people will wake up out for their dead religion parading as Spirit filled Ecclesia. It’s like the end times in the Bible describes the Kingdom with half of it being unwise and half them being ready for their King. The 10 virgins. The Ecclesia is ready, already hidden in the desert but is the “church” that we see with our eyes and that the government attacks ready. Doesn’t seem like it.
The true Ecclesia is far from those who go to church every Sunday. All those professing many false teachings but think it is truth. Quite frankly those who will be under most attack is not the true Ecclesia, which is hidden from destruction in a spiritual desert, where they do not belong in a church but are lead and governed by God. God is letting the church be attacked because they are not the Ecclesia. The church spread lies concerning your money and many other things to prosper their cause which they claim is His. The Ecclesia is separate because our eyes have opened and the Spirit in us disagree with false doctrines and mad made church laws. As A true Ecclesiasts I realised about 10 years ago that the Church is a mockery to truth and to God to say the least because it teaches its own ways and then defend it using the Bible concocting it out of context. It is those that are seen as main stream Christianity that are most under attack. The true Ecclesia is hidden from church people too and but unbelievers recognise them. I am so done with church I am never going back but with God I will stand and work all the days of my life to spread His love and reconcile people to Him.
With religious people and church people I have nothing in common because they are mislead and fight their own wars. The true Ecclesia never made war but in the Heavenly realms where all these troubles stem from. To argue with men is to just do it all in the flesh. Only God and His Spirit can change hearts but some church people think it’s their job. I have had it with people who say God help those who help themselves. Have you not read the Bible? God helps the helpless! Those churches that I have been to have shown themselves as legalist more than graceful and they certainly know how to embrace the rich and give them the best seats. The so called Spirit filled churches are full of legalist who crept in from organised religion and quite frankly God Himself taught me more about truth than the church. I am afraid that those who are perceived as the church will be under severe attack while the Ecclesia is hidden from harm.
The answer to unity is leaving the church and joining the Ecclesia in the Desert. But have you got the guts because they will lie to you and say that you will lose cover from God if you leave their church. This is so Old Testament. Common I have been away from church for more than a decade and God has covered me in every sense and talks to me still in dreams and shares awesome things with me and I don’t even go to church ever because I am sick of the “shows”!! Its time to leave all the liars parading as church and embrace Jesus and hear from Him for yourself in the desert away from all those who fight fleshly causes. The time is now and let those who argue about this nonsense tire themselves and get attacked and scrutinised because the Ecclesia is not an organisation and their gathering is in the Spirit realm, the government can reach realm we congregate to prescribe to us or attack us and if they dare they will be met with the Love of God that will change them.
“But what the Christian Church cannot dispute is its freedom to preach the Bible according to its own convictions.” says Errol. But which one is he speaking of? His People (no doubt), Josh Gen?, Vineyard?, Methodists? Presbyterians? Lutherans? Quakers? Anglicans? Baptists? Catholics? Greek Orthodox? All of the above? Even those within these groupings that disagree that this verse needs to be taken so literally? Even those of us who don’t believe that the security of the Church and the Gospel lies in our hands but rather in His? Or would I be regarded as being an apostate or having had my conscience seared or being backslidden or as worthy of being shunned or excommunicated for disagreeing on these two peripheral issues? When will these immature Christians who think they know it all, have a hotline to heaven and have already arrived stop playing God? (Pride comes before … )
United with Christ we stand, separated from Him we fall!